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Forgiveness
courtneyj
Member since:
2 years 39 weeks
2 years 39 weeks
Last activity:
1 year 35 weeks
1 year 35 weeks
Forgiveness
Posted September 7, 2009 - 6:18pm
In an effort to get over my past I started reading this weekend. I bought a book called disarming the narc. Letting go of anger and the art of. forgiveness. After reading these books I was left asking the following questions regarding my curent mentAl well being and my near future well being. Should I forgive him? Will I be better off forgiving him? Will that help me let him go? Stop thinking about him? About my past? If so, how do I do it? Do I tell him I forgive him? Why? Will I ever really forgive him? I obessivly think about what he is doing and how he could just pick up and start a new life within a week after and engagement and dating for 4 years.
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I tried this too
March 7, 2010 - 12:17am — reneekafter our settlement I went for a full week in the woods in the Berkshires for a lot of R&R to recoup from the hell I had gone through. I was in heaven because my cell phone did not work and it meant he won't call us -- wheww. So I sat down and read 2 books on forgiveness, went to Tanglewood and listened so spectacular soul reaching music and I was ready to learn the art of forgiveness. I journaled, lit candles every night in prayer for my daughter's father and all the hurtful and hateful people in his family -- I worked on meditation and I though this forgiveness stuff would give me a new lease on life. It didn't. Here is my take on it ... for those of you that are lucky enough to have escaped permanently without children -- licking your wounds is going to be hard and here is where I see the art of spiritual forgiveness liberating, very liberating, but for those of those in ongoing abuse that doesn't stop this forgiveness stuff doesn't work -- it leaves us vulnerable and open to risk -- I experienced that first hand and as Barbara says "how can you forgive and crime that is still being perpetrated?"
Too me, that is the part that made my personal journey more complex and difficult. Christ, I could forgive anyone -- it has always been in my nature. It felt better and enabled me to move on, but here I am in a situation where the crime is continuously being committed. I struggled with not forgiving and then I realize that trying to forgive in this situation kept me stuck. It left me hanging on to hopes and expectations that if I forgave he would forgive and all would be better and it just didn't happen quite that way -- I thought it was the magic bullet to peace and harmony and I thought forgiveness was the key to moving on and I thought that was the life lesson I needed to learn. Turns out I already mastered that lesson a long time ago and that the lesson I do suck at is the real lesson I need to learn which was that of accepting people for who they are and believing that people show you who they are -- when they show it or tell it -- believe them. God, that was hard because I couldn't live in la la land anymore and write things off or justify back behavior -- I needed to accept it. Now, that i know that is what this situation calls for -- I now need to figure out what comes after acceptance and I have to ask myself the question how do I grow and become more enlightened for myself and others through this new awareness I am developing.
I named my child Sophie because it meant wisdom. I knew while I was pregnant the the gift she would bestow upon us if we were open to it was wisdom. I knew her decision to come was a catalyst for personal growth because it did and still does push our envelops. As I said I thought my spiritual lesson from all of this was forgiveness -- it is not -- it is as I said above about acceptance, self love, inner strength and understanding how to not engage with crazy as I have always engaged with crazy .... illogical people will always be illogical and that will not change. I bet for most of you with children you might agree that those are some of the main lessons we have to learn because these crazies are here to stay.
Spot On Reneek!
March 7, 2010 - 10:34am — agnesmurphy17As I have written here before, we forgive mistakes, not patterns of behavior.
Nobody decried & demanded "forgiveness" more than my N! Always, I had to forgive & forget. I was "petty" because I held "grudges." (This is, required some accountabilty for his words & deeds.)
Once I said, N, you did nothing wrong, according to you? Correct. And, if I was hurt, that was not your intention? Correct. And, if I was hurt, that's my problem? Correct. So if you did nothing wrong by your act, and if that acceptable act hurt me, that was my problem? Correct. So really, since you N are an innocent, there is nothing to forgive; a person must commit some intentional act & the consequences before any forgiveness is required? Wrong. You, little victim, believe I did something wrong, therefore, for your own well-being you need to forgive. MIND F**K! I almost lost it.
However, my apologies, my requests for forgiveness went unheeded. My apologies & requests were not couched in appropriate enough language. He was too "flooded" to listen to me, the therapist said that when we are "flooded" there needs to be a time out. (What three days of unending silence, except for breaks to further berate the victim?) My transgressions against him left him DEVASTATED, SLAYED, WOUNDED, STABBED IN THE BACK. Such drama. Trust me, my transgressions were mini. But, nevertheless, my transgression FORCED him to SPIT one me! Oh, ladies, I am so (according to N) mistaken to believe that spitting is a symbol of contempt. Should I forgive that act of spitting? He thinks there is nothing wrong. He doesn't really care if I forgive him. Why bother?
I have come to the conclusion, normal psychology should not be applied to psychopaths. Normal psychology gives them a string of easy excuses for their bad behavior. In fact, along with Sam V -- forgiveness should also be a forbidden topic to entertain. Boy! Forgiveness is really a triggering issue. But, I suppose, it is an issue to debate in every the life of every recovering victim.
Well said, Reneek
March 7, 2010 - 12:23am — wallaby (not verified)I have found forgiveness has been my downfall with N's - as you say it opens me up to their abuse and manipulation again. ANd yes, having children too, and seeing how they suffer for it. I Can't forgive now as I need to keep my guard up. If I were a better/stronger person maybe I could forgive and stay on guard for ongoing crap and deflect it as best I can. I do find it helps to think of them as only seeing me as an objet - a tool to an end they desire. Like I'm the can opener to a can of cocaine! Then I a actually don't feel as mad and everything makes sense....
Forgiveness
September 7, 2009 - 11:56pm — cynthia (not verified)You know that expression, "years from now we can look back and laugh", mmmm sorry dont see myself years from now laughing at this experience, this experience left some scars with me. I think its more important to forgive myself for blaming myself and thinking I was less than adequate for this person, forgive him? NOT NOW, cant do it, I crossed the path of a predator, this is who they are and they do this to everybody and anybody. I can never forgive his cruel intent because they know what they do is wrong or they wouldnt wear a mask, forgiving him wont give me peace, moving on with my life will
forgiveness?
September 7, 2009 - 11:40pm — dolce (not verified)If, by forgive you mean to give as you gave before, then no! No way!
But if, for your own peace. For your own spirit you want to let the past go and move on, then yes. Just learn the lessons the past has to teach.
I don't think it's important that you tell him about it. It's your own spirit healing. It's your heart. It's your own conscience. Let him do his own work. He shouldnt have any access to your healing.
But I do believe in forgiveness. Very much so. That doesn't mean contact though. Don't use it as an excuse to make contact.
Do you really think it's important to think of this right now? Forgiveness comes later maybe? For me, I had to get angry. It's helping me heal. I guess we all have our own recovery path.
Think about yourself first. Forgive yourself for getting involved with this kind of person who doesn't give a rats ass about how you felt. Is your forgiveness going to help him? No.
When you do it, do it for the right reasons and at the right time. Thats my 2 cents worth.
IMHO
September 7, 2009 - 8:07pm — BeachcolorsI do think it's important to forgive if it's a concept that has value to you. Just remember that forgiveness DOES NOT mean they get some place in your life. They are scum to never be spoken to again.
I very much believe in forgiveness because (FOR ME) it's not really about them. It allows me to let go fo the anger and hurt without having to give them a damn thing.
I feel that it's a very powerful expression of strengh and peace. It's like saying....see, you tried your best to break me but you couldn't and now im going on with my life with no more thoughts of you....not even revenge.
To me not forgiving them still gives them power over our futures. Staying pissed of and angry takes so much energy and forgiveness is just letting it go. Easier said then done though.
IMHO
September 8, 2009 - 12:44pm — courtneyjMy Story: http://survivorofmred.blogspot.com
I agree he doesnt get a place in my life. In fact I want him completely out of life. I just want to be peaceful with myself. I am starting over. I am moving into a new apartment getting my finances back on track and leaving him behind. I just do not want to be angry anymore. The other day I wrote a letter that highlights what I would say to him should I have the opportunity to forgive him face to face. The thing is, I dont know If I could ever do that and truely mean it. Maybe I should just forgive myself.
courtneyj
September 8, 2009 - 2:54pm — Barbara (not verified)Maybe I should just forgive myself.
YES!!! THAT'S THE ONLY PERSON WHO DESERVES FORGIVENESS!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~
CLICK HERE: Articles & information for Narc Victims - Updated Daily
"As soon as you feel that crazy sense of walking on eggshells, fending off N-rage, stop. Walk away." - Dr. M. Beck
I agree with IMHO
September 7, 2009 - 10:15pm — agilitysbIt takes to much energy to be angry and prevents you from moving forward and healing.....I for one want to be happy and have not given up.....not everyone is an "N". We now know what to look out for....and run away from it if it heads your way.
anger as energy
September 8, 2009 - 3:32pm — dolce (not verified)agilitysb,
But thats the point. Anger IS energy! It propels you forward. It's there in the healing process for a good purpose.
Everyone wants to be happy, but to ignore your anger is not the path. I think it's healthy to acknowledge it. Don't turn it inward. Don't cover it up like a good girl. Let it's energy help you make the changes in yourself so that you can be happy one day.
yes I agree
September 7, 2009 - 9:57pm — tashaI think the forgiving was more about me too. My choice not to be angry-BUT to be the person I was before.I haven't forgotten what they did to me-to forgive does not mean to forget.Each of us deal with what we have experienced in different ways.
courtneyj
September 7, 2009 - 7:16pm — quietude (not verified)I'm so glad you asked yourself some important questions after reading something like this.
I personally can't forgive my ex for what he did to me. Why? He's not remorseful, he's not really sorry, and if I took him back, he'd be right at his old ways soon enough. How am I sure of this? Because I took him back 3 times. The proof is in their history, not what they say.
I can forgive myself though, for not being aware of what NPD was until recently. I blamed myself for not being well-read enough and not recognizing the signs. But I've moved past that, but I don't think I'll ever move past how he nearly ruined me.
Quietud
September 7, 2009 - 7:48pm — courtneyjMy Story: http://survivorofmred.blogspot.com
I agree with what you said about them not being remorseful.
This dforgiveness is not about him it would be about me. However, based off of what he did I am not sure if it would even be worth it. I don't want to sit and belabor over what he did. In my mind
I am not sure if I could ever really forgive him and mean it. His acts were unconsciencable. He feels no remorse but I don't want to go through life being angry. I started back up with the anti depression meds. I like everyone want to be happy. To carry around anger seems self defeating. I have worked out trained for a marathong beat up a punching bag. Read wrote i still seem to get upset at times. Which leads me to believe forgiveness might be worth it. Advice?
Forgiveness Vs. Trusting
September 8, 2009 - 1:39pm — FawnI struggle with the forgiveness thing too, and have read a lot about the concept. One of the best things I have heard lately is about distinguishing forgivenss from trusting. You can forgive someone and let it be between him and God. BUT, you don't put yourself in a position again to TRUST that person, because they will hurt you again, and then you would have to go through all of that pain again. So, I think that it may be possible to forgive someone, let them go, let it be between him and God, and move on.
I'm not sure that I am at that point again, because the N in my life continues to do things to try and hurt me, and I think that he always will. No, he doesn't get a reaction out of me anymore, now he is trying to hurt our children. However, I won't ever put myself in a position where I have to trust him or have anything to do with him again, because HE WILL HURT ME. In other words, I don't trust him. I haven't trusted him for many, many years because he isn't trustworthy. I didn't allow myself that knowledge while I was still with him, because it just didn't compute in my own head. Of course, he was telling me I was crazy not to trust him, while acting in very un-trustworthy ways.
I hope this helps. It is an important distinction.
Dcrutche
September 8, 2009 - 3:44pm — courtneyjMy Story: http://survivorofmred.blogspot.com
That is a very intersting point. I know I will never trust him again. I never say, never, but hell would have to freeze before I trusted him again. I just want to forgive, maybe just myself, is all I need to worry about forgiving.
When i first moved back to Chicago, when our relationship started falling apart, I went with my mom and her neighbor to a palm reader as sort of a joke.
Well, the palm reader told my mom she was married to her sole-mate after 40 years of marriage my moms cynical side really showed. The palm reader told her friend, she was going to live a long life but at the moment she is not as healthy as she thinks she is. A month later she was diagnosed with Shingles. She told me, I couldnt get a commitment from someone. He didnt live in Chicago. All he would do is continue to hurt me. She asked if that was the life I wanted to live. Of course I said no. She also said that within 6 months to a year I would find love. Well, maybe its the love I have for myself that she was referring to. Which is fine with me.
never forgive part 2
September 7, 2009 - 10:00pm — Barbara (not verified)read: http://narc-attack.blogspot.com/2007/12/forgiving-one-who-deserves-forgi...
This says it all.
Forgive yourself - it's WASTED on them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
CLICK HERE: Articles & information for Narc Victims - Updated Daily
"As soon as you feel that crazy sense of walking on eggshells, fending off N-rage, stop. Walk away." - Dr. M. Beck
anger
September 7, 2009 - 8:40pm — quietude (not verified)I have found that anger is my friend. It has helped me get past the 'why didn't he love me' REALLY sad stage, to realizing I was totally violated. Anger comes in handy at times...I use it to 'propel' me into the right direction. It's not like I'm walking around angry and grumpy all the time. If you knew me in person, you'd wonder what meds I'm on to create my 'sunny' disposition. :)
So, to me, anger is a tool...we have it for a reason. I apologize if I offend anyone, but even Jesus got angry. God gave us our emotions for reasons. It's up to us to try to disern the proper place and time for them.
quietude
September 8, 2009 - 3:36pm — dolce (not verified)That's how I feel :)
I don't walk around in an angry state, but use that anger wisely.
Lucky!
September 7, 2009 - 8:51pm — whatever2009We are lucky to have emotion, and be able to feel them, understand them and learn from them.
These suckers dont have them, so they spend there lives trying to borrow, or shall I say STEAL ours. Im glad I hurt now, cuz I will be kick ass later!
courtneyj
September 7, 2009 - 6:31pm — tashaI forgave my ex husband for the horrible life I had with him-it took me 5 years to do it. For 5 years I was angry at my husband I never lived, there was nothing else except being engaged in this anger with my ex. It took good years of my life that I could have been happy-I could have used to heal and learn. I feel better for it now.
I forgave the narc too-i didnt want to carry the anger for the rest of my life. I had to let it go-it was consuming me.
Though I do think now that I am too forgiving, I read a link fom this site that said not to go through all that pain for nothing and learn from it,if you dont learn anything-then the pain was for nothing.
NEVER forgive, NEVER forget
September 7, 2009 - 6:28pm — Barbara (not verified)I do NOT Believe in forgiving them. It's part of that STOOPID codependency bullcrap.
start reading:
http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/2007/07/forgiveness.html
http://narc-attack.blogspot.com/2008/03/healing-and-forgiveness.html
http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/2008/02/testing-for-repentance.html
http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/2008/02/forgiveness-or-lack-thereof...
http://narc-attack.blogspot.com/2007/12/forgiving-one-who-deserves-forgi...
YOU CANNOT FORGIVE A CRIME THAT IS STILL IN PROGRESS!
~~~~~~~~~~~~
CLICK HERE: Articles & information for Narc Victims - Updated Daily
"As soon as you feel that crazy sense of walking on eggshells, fending off N-rage, stop. Walk away." - Dr. M. Beck
Forgiveness
September 8, 2009 - 2:06pm — Rose-MarieHow can you forgive someone who knows exactly what they are doing, has no remorse, and will continue to do it again and again??
I am a spiritual person and many years ago struggled with the forgiveness aspect following the D & D by N1. It wasn't that I did not accept my part in it - it was just that he decided that he had no part in what happened and whatever angst I felt, I apparently did it all to myself - i.e. according to him, he played no part in it. I eventually found peace and came to the conclusion that I had learnt that particular lesson and would never need to confront it again.
Lo and behold, up pops N2 and I am being presented with the same lesson again - for what reason I have absolutely no clue. So no, I am not going to forgive him for saying and doing what he did - why should I? I didn't get me very far last time as far as I can see, but maybe I am missing the point.
In this instance I am going to forgive myself for missing the blatantly obvious red flags at the beginning and getting involved with such a tosser (English word for Assclown) - as far as he is concerned, he can take a run and jump. Sorry if I have rambled, but one day I hope the Almighty will give me the answers to some very searching questions.
Rosy
Rosy
September 8, 2009 - 2:30pm — ScoopExcelent use of the word tosser .I nearly spat out my tea when i read that lol.
I dont go into this fogivness crap . Let him rot in hell is what i say . Mr charming licking and scaping his way through life , he makes me sick .
NB Rosy was a little polite over the meaning of the word tosser because she is a Lady . I want you all to imagin a very little man sitting on the end of his bed with a porn mag open . also the word "Wanker" comes in the same group.I personaly use theses word most days to sum up my n .
Nice one Rosy i cracked a smile for the first time today ..
Big Love
Peru x
Smiling here
September 8, 2009 - 3:09pm — Rose-MarieHi Peru,
Really, no other country can match "us Brits" when it comes to adjectives. "Tossers", "wankers" and "crapheads" spring to mind. "Assclown" is just toooo polite for them.
Glad I gave you a smile, Peru. I am smiling now.
Rosy
True! We Yanks just wait
March 7, 2010 - 5:04pm — itreallyisabouthimTrue! We Yanks just wait around for the next round of insulting adjectives to make its way across the Atlantic so we can borrow them from you :)
I think forgiveness the way I define it requires acknowledgment of some sort of commonality between the other person and me. It requires a feeling that I could have done that to someone else under the right circumstances. I just can't go there with the stuff my N did, and compared to many others' experiences, his transgressions weren't all that bad. It's just that I cannot relate at all on any human level. So I can't quite go there. Best I can do is say "well that was really messed up and strange I'm going to try to avoid people like that in the future". And try to forgive myself for overlooking the red flags as I did.